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	<title>Comments on: Comments From Larry Yaffe</title>
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	<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=69</link>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=69&#038;cpage=1#comment-733</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=69#comment-733</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m just correcting your misapprehension about the mentioned work. I&#039;ve done the pro- anti- string stuff way too often to have any desire to get into it now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m just correcting your misapprehension about the mentioned work. I&#8217;ve done the pro- anti- string stuff way too often to have any desire to get into it now.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Larsson</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=69&#038;cpage=1#comment-734</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Larsson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=69#comment-734</guid>
		<description>Aaron,

I didn&#039;t claim to have a very good understanding about algebraic geometry. This was how I understood one of Witten&#039;s original papers, and he didn&#039;t say which xxx-Witten invariant he described there.

But my main point was really that no mathematical discovery, however cool, is by itself evidence that this math has anything to do with physics. This is true for various invariants and dualities in algebraic geometry, as well as the higher-dimensional generalizations of Virasoro and affine algebras and their &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.arxiv.org/abs/math.GR/0302007&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;global group&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.arxiv.org/abs/math.GR/0402303&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;generalizations&lt;/a&gt;.

For me to accept something as physics, something more is needed:  experimental support. It seems to me undeniable that the groups of diffeomorphisms and gauge transformations play a significant role in experimentally confirmed theories. I don&#039;t see such a role for various dualities, Gromov-Witten invariants or mirror symmetries. But maybe its just me being too skeptical about hidden worlds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aaron,</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t claim to have a very good understanding about algebraic geometry. This was how I understood one of Witten&#8217;s original papers, and he didn&#8217;t say which xxx-Witten invariant he described there.</p>
<p>But my main point was really that no mathematical discovery, however cool, is by itself evidence that this math has anything to do with physics. This is true for various invariants and dualities in algebraic geometry, as well as the higher-dimensional generalizations of Virasoro and affine algebras and their <a href="http://www.arxiv.org/abs/math.GR/0302007" rel="nofollow">global group</a> <a href="http://www.arxiv.org/abs/math.GR/0402303" rel="nofollow">generalizations</a>.</p>
<p>For me to accept something as physics, something more is needed:  experimental support. It seems to me undeniable that the groups of diffeomorphisms and gauge transformations play a significant role in experimentally confirmed theories. I don&#8217;t see such a role for various dualities, Gromov-Witten invariants or mirror symmetries. But maybe its just me being too skeptical about hidden worlds.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=69&#038;cpage=1#comment-735</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=69#comment-735</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re understanding isn&#039;t correct. I think you might be getting at issues in topological field theory where the correlation functions are independent of the metric. Donaldson-Witten theory is a twisted N=2 SYM, for example.

Gromov-Witten theory, mirror symmetry and the like come from topolgical versions of string theory where the worldsheet CFT is twisted into a topological theory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re understanding isn&#8217;t correct. I think you might be getting at issues in topological field theory where the correlation functions are independent of the metric. Donaldson-Witten theory is a twisted N=2 SYM, for example.</p>
<p>Gromov-Witten theory, mirror symmetry and the like come from topolgical versions of string theory where the worldsheet CFT is twisted into a topological theory.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Larsson</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=69&#038;cpage=1#comment-736</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Larsson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=69#comment-736</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt; String theory has made remarkable contributions to mathematics, allowing previously unforeseen connections to be found between very different areas. This has shown up in new (provable!) results in enumerative geometry, Gromov-Witten invariants, mirror symmetry, etc. &lt;/em&gt;

My impression is that this has very little to do with physics, and not really that much with string theory neither (unless you define string theory to be whatever Witten does). My very limited understanding of these matters is that some correlation functions in N=4 SYM turn out to be independent of separation. This has two consequences:

1. These correlators are smooth (Gromov-Witten?) invariants of the underlying four-manifold.

2. We may freely move the points to convenient positions, probably very close to each other, where the correlators can actually be calculated.

This is wonderful in enumerative geometry, because it gives us calculable smooth invariants which you can use to prove a lot of theorems. But exactly the same properties seem to be rather useless in physics, where we usually want correlation functions to decay with distance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em> String theory has made remarkable contributions to mathematics, allowing previously unforeseen connections to be found between very different areas. This has shown up in new (provable!) results in enumerative geometry, Gromov-Witten invariants, mirror symmetry, etc. </em></p>
<p>My impression is that this has very little to do with physics, and not really that much with string theory neither (unless you define string theory to be whatever Witten does). My very limited understanding of these matters is that some correlation functions in N=4 SYM turn out to be independent of separation. This has two consequences:</p>
<p>1. These correlators are smooth (Gromov-Witten?) invariants of the underlying four-manifold.</p>
<p>2. We may freely move the points to convenient positions, probably very close to each other, where the correlators can actually be calculated.</p>
<p>This is wonderful in enumerative geometry, because it gives us calculable smooth invariants which you can use to prove a lot of theorems. But exactly the same properties seem to be rather useless in physics, where we usually want correlation functions to decay with distance.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=69&#038;cpage=1#comment-737</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=69#comment-737</guid>
		<description>D. R. Lunsford asked whether my string = worldline model does such things as 
&quot;eliminate time&quot;, etc. 
It does not, in my opinion. To see how it works in sufficient detail to answer 
such questions, please read the entire CERN CDS preprint EXT-2004-031 at 
http://cdsweb.cern.ch/search.py?recid=730325&amp;ln=en

The spirit of the model is similar to that proposed by Elitzur and Dolev 
in their paper at  http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/quant-ph/0207029
where they say:
&quot;... we propose quantum mechanical experiments that yield inconsistent histories, 
suggesting that not only events but also entire histories might be governed 
by a more fundamental dynamics. ...&quot;. 

The basic idea is that each &quot;entire history&quot; would be represented by a &quot;string&quot;. 
and that the fundamental interactions of quantum theory are 
not between mere point particles 
but 
are between strings/entire histories. 

Elitzur and Dolev, in that article, describe 
&quot;... quantum mechanical experiments yielding apparently inconsistent histories ...[which]... would give rise to an account like 
&quot;first a retarded interaction brings about history t1x1, t2x2, ... 
and then 
an advanced interaction transforms this history into t1x&#039;1, t2x&#039;2 ...&quot; 
and they say
&quot;... Perhaps ... changes affect not only events but also entire histories. 
... Such a model will be better capable of explaining quantum peculiarities 
of the kind described above, as well as a few other surprising results 
discovered lately by similar techniques ...&quot;. 

Please note that the Elitzur-Dolev paper also discusses some aspects of 
Hawking&#039;s recently recanted position regarding information loss in black holes, 
but that aspect of the paper seems to me to be substantially independent 
of their proposal that it is 
interaction between entire histories (world-lines/strings) 
and not 
event-interactions between mere point particles 
that is fundamental in quantum physics. 

Tony Smith</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>D. R. Lunsford asked whether my string = worldline model does such things as<br />
&#8220;eliminate time&#8221;, etc.<br />
It does not, in my opinion. To see how it works in sufficient detail to answer<br />
such questions, please read the entire CERN CDS preprint EXT-2004-031 at<br />
<a href="http://cdsweb.cern.ch/search.py?recid=730325&#038;ln=en" rel="nofollow">http://cdsweb.cern.ch/search.py?recid=730325&#038;ln=en</a></p>
<p>The spirit of the model is similar to that proposed by Elitzur and Dolev<br />
in their paper at  <a href="http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/quant-ph/0207029" rel="nofollow">http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/quant-ph/0207029</a><br />
where they say:<br />
&#8220;&#8230; we propose quantum mechanical experiments that yield inconsistent histories,<br />
suggesting that not only events but also entire histories might be governed<br />
by a more fundamental dynamics. &#8230;&#8221;. </p>
<p>The basic idea is that each &#8220;entire history&#8221; would be represented by a &#8220;string&#8221;.<br />
and that the fundamental interactions of quantum theory are<br />
not between mere point particles<br />
but<br />
are between strings/entire histories. </p>
<p>Elitzur and Dolev, in that article, describe<br />
&#8220;&#8230; quantum mechanical experiments yielding apparently inconsistent histories &#8230;[which]&#8230; would give rise to an account like<br />
&#8220;first a retarded interaction brings about history t1&#215;1, t2&#215;2, &#8230;<br />
and then<br />
an advanced interaction transforms this history into t1x&#8217;1, t2x&#8217;2 &#8230;&#8221;<br />
and they say<br />
&#8220;&#8230; Perhaps &#8230; changes affect not only events but also entire histories.<br />
&#8230; Such a model will be better capable of explaining quantum peculiarities<br />
of the kind described above, as well as a few other surprising results<br />
discovered lately by similar techniques &#8230;&#8221;. </p>
<p>Please note that the Elitzur-Dolev paper also discusses some aspects of<br />
Hawking&#8217;s recently recanted position regarding information loss in black holes,<br />
but that aspect of the paper seems to me to be substantially independent<br />
of their proposal that it is<br />
interaction between entire histories (world-lines/strings)<br />
and not<br />
event-interactions between mere point particles<br />
that is fundamental in quantum physics. </p>
<p>Tony Smith</p>
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		<title>By: D R Lunsford</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=69&#038;cpage=1#comment-738</link>
		<dc:creator>D R Lunsford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=69#comment-738</guid>
		<description>Tony -

Doesn&#039;t the usual argument against rigid bodies in relativity eliminate your interpretation of the world-line of a particle as a &quot;string&quot;? If not, then you are saying that a &quot;stringicle&quot; acts as a unit over its entire history - and that any creation-annihilation events in its history have to be included, extending the stringicle to another, to another etc. etc. So, in effect you&#039;re eliminating time, and returning to a Eucldidean-Pythagorean static world picture without dynamics. Odd how this matches the &quot;back to Democritus&quot; approach implicit in the &quot;nothing but fibers and the void&quot; approach.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tony -</p>
<p>Doesn&#8217;t the usual argument against rigid bodies in relativity eliminate your interpretation of the world-line of a particle as a &#8220;string&#8221;? If not, then you are saying that a &#8220;stringicle&#8221; acts as a unit over its entire history &#8211; and that any creation-annihilation events in its history have to be included, extending the stringicle to another, to another etc. etc. So, in effect you&#8217;re eliminating time, and returning to a Eucldidean-Pythagorean static world picture without dynamics. Odd how this matches the &#8220;back to Democritus&#8221; approach implicit in the &#8220;nothing but fibers and the void&#8221; approach.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=69&#038;cpage=1#comment-739</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=69#comment-739</guid>
		<description>Larry Yaffe says &quot;... String theory has not yet made any convincing connection with the world we live in. ...&quot;. 

While that may be true of conventional formulations of string theory, 
what about formulations based on unconventional physical interpretations 
of strings (such as strings = world lines of point particles) from 
which string theory structures such as 26-dim spacetime, D8 branes, 
and discretizing by orbifolding can be used to make models such as 
that described in CERN CDS preprint EXT-2004-031 at 
http://cdsweb.cern.ch/search.py?recid=730325&amp;ln=en     
?
There has been a small bit of discussion about that model on sci.physics.strings, 
where the model itself is labelled &quot;Speculation&quot; and comments range 
from 
&quot;.. pure numerology ... coincidence ...&quot; 
to 
&quot;... a nice formulation of (bosonic) M-theory (as Susskind refers to the 27-dimensional theory), from where we work down dimensionally ... to recover fermions ...&quot;. 
The above quotes are given without stating full detailed context in order 
to illustrate the range of opinions that seem to exist about the model. 
Anyone who is really interested in details should read that sps thread 
and the paper itself, as well as related material cited therein. 

Anyhow, the basic point of this comment is that even though Larry Yaffe 
may be correct that current conventional formulations of string theory 
have &quot;... not yet made any convincing connection with the world we live in ...&quot;, 
his statement may not be correct with respect to some unconventional string-based models. 
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Larry Yaffe says &#8220;&#8230; String theory has not yet made any convincing connection with the world we live in. &#8230;&#8221;. </p>
<p>While that may be true of conventional formulations of string theory,<br />
what about formulations based on unconventional physical interpretations<br />
of strings (such as strings = world lines of point particles) from<br />
which string theory structures such as 26-dim spacetime, D8 branes,<br />
and discretizing by orbifolding can be used to make models such as<br />
that described in CERN CDS preprint EXT-2004-031 at<br />
<a href="http://cdsweb.cern.ch/search.py?recid=730325&#038;ln=en" rel="nofollow">http://cdsweb.cern.ch/search.py?recid=730325&#038;ln=en</a><br />
?<br />
There has been a small bit of discussion about that model on sci.physics.strings,<br />
where the model itself is labelled &#8220;Speculation&#8221; and comments range<br />
from<br />
&#8220;.. pure numerology &#8230; coincidence &#8230;&#8221;<br />
to<br />
&#8220;&#8230; a nice formulation of (bosonic) M-theory (as Susskind refers to the 27-dimensional theory), from where we work down dimensionally &#8230; to recover fermions &#8230;&#8221;.<br />
The above quotes are given without stating full detailed context in order<br />
to illustrate the range of opinions that seem to exist about the model.<br />
Anyone who is really interested in details should read that sps thread<br />
and the paper itself, as well as related material cited therein. </p>
<p>Anyhow, the basic point of this comment is that even though Larry Yaffe<br />
may be correct that current conventional formulations of string theory<br />
have &#8220;&#8230; not yet made any convincing connection with the world we live in &#8230;&#8221;,<br />
his statement may not be correct with respect to some unconventional string-based models.</p>
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