<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Talk by David Gross</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?feed=rss2&#038;p=2" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=2</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 05:18:29 -0500</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Not Even Wrong &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Pressure Mounts to Tie String Theory to the Real World</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=2&#038;cpage=1#comment-33661</link>
		<dc:creator>Not Even Wrong &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Pressure Mounts to Tie String Theory to the Real World</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:39:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=2#comment-33661</guid>
		<description>[...] gave here in New York three and a half years ago, which I wrote about in my first real blog posting here. It is striking to note how little has changed in this field during this [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] gave here in New York three and a half years ago, which I wrote about in my first real blog posting here. It is striking to note how little has changed in this field during this [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Not Even Wrong &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Various Links</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=2&#038;cpage=1#comment-11011</link>
		<dc:creator>Not Even Wrong &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Various Links</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 May 2006 21:20:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=2#comment-11011</guid>
		<description>[...] David Gross recently gave a series of lectures at Princeton entitled &#8220;The Search for a Theory of Fundamental Reality&#8221; and they are available on-line. When introducing Gross, Curt Callan noted that Princeton University Press hopes that he&#8217;ll turn his lectures into a book that they would publish. The last lecture concerns the problems and prospects of string theory and is very similar to one commented on here a couple years ago in the first real posting on this weblog. Gross says about string theory &#8220;so far, we haven&#8217;t really calculated anything&#8221;, and goes on to give three reasons for this: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] David Gross recently gave a series of lectures at Princeton entitled &#8220;The Search for a Theory of Fundamental Reality&#8221; and they are available on-line. When introducing Gross, Curt Callan noted that Princeton University Press hopes that he&#8217;ll turn his lectures into a book that they would publish. The last lecture concerns the problems and prospects of string theory and is very similar to one commented on here a couple years ago in the first real posting on this weblog. Gross says about string theory &#8220;so far, we haven&#8217;t really calculated anything&#8221;, and goes on to give three reasons for this: [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Arun</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=2&#038;cpage=1#comment-7</link>
		<dc:creator>Arun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=2#comment-7</guid>
		<description>Epicycles, aether, string theory?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Epicycles, aether, string theory?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=2&#038;cpage=1#comment-8</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=2#comment-8</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t believe at all that it would be a &quot;stunning triumph&quot; to find a consistent version of string theory that is compatible with any QFT. Quite the opposite: it would be a stunning failure. It would mean that, as a theory of particle physics, string theory was completely and utterly vacuous. There&#039;s no reason other than wishful thinking to believe that such a theory would predict anything (if your theory fundamentally has nothing to say about matter, there&#039;s no reason to believe it&#039;s going to be able to precisely predict anything about any physical process).

Gross doesn&#039;t believe this nonsense. He&#039;s known to start quoting Churchill, shouting &quot;Never, never, never, never give up!&quot; when people like Susskind (or Srednicki) start talking about how great it would be to have a theory that is compatible with anything. At his CUNY talk and elsewhere he emphasized that it is the role of particle theorists to find a theory that explains the things about particle physics that the standard model doesn&#039;t, not to congratulate themselves for having found a theory that is consistent with anything.

Gross now stakes his hopes on the idea that the presently known version of string theory is inconsistent and that when a consistent theory is found it will have better uniqueness properties. I (and many others, including Susskind) think this is wishful thinking.  I also think he should ditch his powerpoint slide that says that string theory is a finite and consistent theory of quantum gravity, when later in his talk he is pinning his hopes on its inconsistency.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t believe at all that it would be a &#8220;stunning triumph&#8221; to find a consistent version of string theory that is compatible with any QFT. Quite the opposite: it would be a stunning failure. It would mean that, as a theory of particle physics, string theory was completely and utterly vacuous. There&#8217;s no reason other than wishful thinking to believe that such a theory would predict anything (if your theory fundamentally has nothing to say about matter, there&#8217;s no reason to believe it&#8217;s going to be able to precisely predict anything about any physical process).</p>
<p>Gross doesn&#8217;t believe this nonsense. He&#8217;s known to start quoting Churchill, shouting &#8220;Never, never, never, never give up!&#8221; when people like Susskind (or Srednicki) start talking about how great it would be to have a theory that is compatible with anything. At his CUNY talk and elsewhere he emphasized that it is the role of particle theorists to find a theory that explains the things about particle physics that the standard model doesn&#8217;t, not to congratulate themselves for having found a theory that is consistent with anything.</p>
<p>Gross now stakes his hopes on the idea that the presently known version of string theory is inconsistent and that when a consistent theory is found it will have better uniqueness properties. I (and many others, including Susskind) think this is wishful thinking.  I also think he should ditch his powerpoint slide that says that string theory is a finite and consistent theory of quantum gravity, when later in his talk he is pinning his hopes on its inconsistency.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=2&#038;cpage=1#comment-9</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=2#comment-9</guid>
		<description>I think Mark&#039;s point is this: it would be a &quot;stunning triumph&quot; to find a candidate for a UV completion of the Standard Model including gravity. Surely this would make new predictions. Granted, there is the issue that perturbative string theory is not provably finite. But, this does not mean the string theory would not let us calculate things we could not otherwise do.

Of course, this won&#039;t lead us immediately to the &quot;theory of everything,&quot; whatever that might mean. But it could be an important step. We could try to test, for instance, whether the real world looks like some intersecting brane scenario.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Mark&#8217;s point is this: it would be a &#8220;stunning triumph&#8221; to find a candidate for a UV completion of the Standard Model including gravity. Surely this would make new predictions. Granted, there is the issue that perturbative string theory is not provably finite. But, this does not mean the string theory would not let us calculate things we could not otherwise do.</p>
<p>Of course, this won&#8217;t lead us immediately to the &#8220;theory of everything,&#8221; whatever that might mean. But it could be an important step. We could try to test, for instance, whether the real world looks like some intersecting brane scenario.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=2&#038;cpage=1#comment-10</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=2#comment-10</guid>
		<description>We really do strongly disagree here.

First of all, even if you believe in finiteness of higher loops in string perturbation theory, perturbative string theory is not a finite theory. All evidence is that the expansion in the string coupling constant is a divergent series.  What you&#039;ve got is presumably an asymptotic expansion.  This may give a useful approximation if the string coupling constant is very small, a useless one if it isn&#039;t.  Saying that perturbative string theory is a &quot;finite, consistent theory of quantum gravity&quot; is simply not true. You can&#039;t sum the series to get something finite, and if you cut it off at a finite order your theory is inconsistent (not unitary).

So if you can get any QFT + gravity out of perturbative string theory + a choice of background, what have you actually got? You&#039;ve got an exceedingly complex theory that predicts absolutely not a single thing about anything and is inconsistent to boot. Would this be a &quot;stunning triumph&quot;? 

If you want to engage in extreme wishful thinking and believe that string theorists will come up with a finite, non-perturbative string theory that could have any QFT as its low energy limit, calling such a thing a &quot;stunning triumph&quot; would still be complete hype.  It would predict nothing about anything.  Theorists should save terms like &quot;stunning triumph&quot; for the day they actually manage to make a single solid prediction that in anyway goes beyond the standard model.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We really do strongly disagree here.</p>
<p>First of all, even if you believe in finiteness of higher loops in string perturbation theory, perturbative string theory is not a finite theory. All evidence is that the expansion in the string coupling constant is a divergent series.  What you&#8217;ve got is presumably an asymptotic expansion.  This may give a useful approximation if the string coupling constant is very small, a useless one if it isn&#8217;t.  Saying that perturbative string theory is a &#8220;finite, consistent theory of quantum gravity&#8221; is simply not true. You can&#8217;t sum the series to get something finite, and if you cut it off at a finite order your theory is inconsistent (not unitary).</p>
<p>So if you can get any QFT + gravity out of perturbative string theory + a choice of background, what have you actually got? You&#8217;ve got an exceedingly complex theory that predicts absolutely not a single thing about anything and is inconsistent to boot. Would this be a &#8220;stunning triumph&#8221;? </p>
<p>If you want to engage in extreme wishful thinking and believe that string theorists will come up with a finite, non-perturbative string theory that could have any QFT as its low energy limit, calling such a thing a &#8220;stunning triumph&#8221; would still be complete hype.  It would predict nothing about anything.  Theorists should save terms like &#8220;stunning triumph&#8221; for the day they actually manage to make a single solid prediction that in anyway goes beyond the standard model.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Srednicki</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=2&#038;cpage=1#comment-11</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Srednicki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=2#comment-11</guid>
		<description>&quot;While Gross mentioned the &quot;discretuum&quot;, he didn&#039;t really explain exactly how disastrous this is for string theory, since it makes it essentiallly vacuous.&quot;

I strongly disagree with this.  The extreme case of the discretuum is that *every* QFT is realizable as the low-energy limit of string theory.  This probably isn&#039;t right, but suppose it is.  Then we could take *any* QFT (with some exceptions: no Landau poles below the Planck scale, for example), include gravity, and have a finite quantum theory (assuming string finiteness holds up, which it may not).  This should be considered a stunning triumph!

Furthermore, probably not *every* QFT is realizable in this way.  Some are, some aren&#039;t.  Which class is the Standard Model in?  It seems to me that this is a very important (though also very hard) question.

The great dream was that there would be only *one* QFT realizable as the low energy limit of string theory, and that it would turn out to be the Standard Model.  It would&#039;ve been great, but right now it doesn&#039;t seem likely.  That certainly doesn&#039;t mean that string theory is vacuous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;While Gross mentioned the &#8220;discretuum&#8221;, he didn&#8217;t really explain exactly how disastrous this is for string theory, since it makes it essentiallly vacuous.&#8221;</p>
<p>I strongly disagree with this.  The extreme case of the discretuum is that *every* QFT is realizable as the low-energy limit of string theory.  This probably isn&#8217;t right, but suppose it is.  Then we could take *any* QFT (with some exceptions: no Landau poles below the Planck scale, for example), include gravity, and have a finite quantum theory (assuming string finiteness holds up, which it may not).  This should be considered a stunning triumph!</p>
<p>Furthermore, probably not *every* QFT is realizable in this way.  Some are, some aren&#8217;t.  Which class is the Standard Model in?  It seems to me that this is a very important (though also very hard) question.</p>
<p>The great dream was that there would be only *one* QFT realizable as the low energy limit of string theory, and that it would turn out to be the Standard Model.  It would&#8217;ve been great, but right now it doesn&#8217;t seem likely.  That certainly doesn&#8217;t mean that string theory is vacuous.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=2&#038;cpage=1#comment-12</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=2#comment-12</guid>
		<description>Hi Fred!

The interesting thing about Gross&#039;s talk was that he was kind of going out on a limb on the issue of supersymmetry at the LHC.  I&#039;m more and more convinced that he and a lot of others are getting discouraged about string theory and no supersymmetry at the LHC will be the final straw.

The worst possible thing for particle theory would be if the standard model Higgs shows up, behaving like a standard elementary scalar field with a certain mass.  Then we would still be in the situation of having no idea where the Higgs potential or couplings come from, and no prospects for doing experiments in our lifetime to find out.

I&#039;m also hoping the LHC doesn&#039;t find a standard Higgs field, but evidence for some more interesting way of breaking electroweak gauge symmetry, one that we haven&#039;t thought of yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Fred!</p>
<p>The interesting thing about Gross&#8217;s talk was that he was kind of going out on a limb on the issue of supersymmetry at the LHC.  I&#8217;m more and more convinced that he and a lot of others are getting discouraged about string theory and no supersymmetry at the LHC will be the final straw.</p>
<p>The worst possible thing for particle theory would be if the standard model Higgs shows up, behaving like a standard elementary scalar field with a certain mass.  Then we would still be in the situation of having no idea where the Higgs potential or couplings come from, and no prospects for doing experiments in our lifetime to find out.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m also hoping the LHC doesn&#8217;t find a standard Higgs field, but evidence for some more interesting way of breaking electroweak gauge symmetry, one that we haven&#8217;t thought of yet.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Fred</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=2&#038;cpage=1#comment-13</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=2#comment-13</guid>
		<description>Hi Peter..

If they don&#039;t find any SUSY at LHC, I doubt it will be the death knell of String Theory.  Alas, there is enough degrees of freedom there to just argue that it breaks at a higher scale, no big deal!

The nasty thing of course is that it just adds more fine tuning to minimal SUSY, and much of the original point would be lost.

I&#039;m more interested though, in the (seemingly absurd) case that the LHC doesn&#039;t discover the Higgs!  AFAICS, all reasonable models put it firmly in reach of the LHC.. If we don&#039;t find it, well, something drastic has got to give.  I don&#039;t see many people talking about that, so entrenched is the SM gospel in our minds.  What a strange higgs sector that would imply.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Peter..</p>
<p>If they don&#8217;t find any SUSY at LHC, I doubt it will be the death knell of String Theory.  Alas, there is enough degrees of freedom there to just argue that it breaks at a higher scale, no big deal!</p>
<p>The nasty thing of course is that it just adds more fine tuning to minimal SUSY, and much of the original point would be lost.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m more interested though, in the (seemingly absurd) case that the LHC doesn&#8217;t discover the Higgs!  AFAICS, all reasonable models put it firmly in reach of the LHC.. If we don&#8217;t find it, well, something drastic has got to give.  I don&#8217;t see many people talking about that, so entrenched is the SM gospel in our minds.  What a strange higgs sector that would imply.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=2&#038;cpage=1#comment-14</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=2#comment-14</guid>
		<description>Hi Matt,

Have you decided where to go to grad school yet?

Today I&#039;ve put up somewhat more positive posts, and in general hope to mix the positive and negative. Unfortunately even the positive posts will probably be so speculative as to be &quot;Not Even Wrong&quot;. When I  figure out a unification idea that really works I&#039;ll dump the blog and start instead enjoying the fruits of fame and fortune that accrue to super-star physicists.

Your idea of pursuing applications of string theory to better understand strongly interacting gauge theories is quite reasonable.  I don&#039;t have any problem with that part of the string theory program.  My problem very specifically is with the  continual hyping of the failed idea of unifying the standard model and gravity in a 10/11d supersymmetric string/M-theory.

I&#039;m not so convinced that new information about strongly interacting gauge theories coming from string theory duals will solve the problem of spontaneous gauge symmetry breaking.  The technicolor idea is quite beautiful, but all implementations of it seem to involve adding a huge amount of new structure to one&#039;s theory, while not being able to actually calculate anything one wants to calculate. On the other hand, maybe one can use string duals to 
find a way of calculating things, and if this is the way the world works, there should be real evidence for it a few years from now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Matt,</p>
<p>Have you decided where to go to grad school yet?</p>
<p>Today I&#8217;ve put up somewhat more positive posts, and in general hope to mix the positive and negative. Unfortunately even the positive posts will probably be so speculative as to be &#8220;Not Even Wrong&#8221;. When I  figure out a unification idea that really works I&#8217;ll dump the blog and start instead enjoying the fruits of fame and fortune that accrue to super-star physicists.</p>
<p>Your idea of pursuing applications of string theory to better understand strongly interacting gauge theories is quite reasonable.  I don&#8217;t have any problem with that part of the string theory program.  My problem very specifically is with the  continual hyping of the failed idea of unifying the standard model and gravity in a 10/11d supersymmetric string/M-theory.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not so convinced that new information about strongly interacting gauge theories coming from string theory duals will solve the problem of spontaneous gauge symmetry breaking.  The technicolor idea is quite beautiful, but all implementations of it seem to involve adding a huge amount of new structure to one&#8217;s theory, while not being able to actually calculate anything one wants to calculate. On the other hand, maybe one can use string duals to<br />
find a way of calculating things, and if this is the way the world works, there should be real evidence for it a few years from now.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
