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	<title>Comments on: Weil&#8217;s Letter From Prison</title>
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	<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=153</link>
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		<title>By: Eleggua</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=153&#038;cpage=1#comment-2327</link>
		<dc:creator>Eleggua</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=153#comment-2327</guid>
		<description>I think that the criticism of Bourbaki is over the top. If you are interested in philosophy, in particular of the analytical type, then actually Bourbaki group helped developed some very interesting mathematics which lead to these developments:

Cleared up the notion of &#039;proof&#039; for a mathematician (i.e there are an &#039;infinity&#039; of levels at which mathematics can be done : - Category theory is just one)

Created the machinery that allowed 2nd order logic to be formalised. This lead to P Cohen proof of the undecidablity of continuum hypothesis.

Also to the proof that Mathematics is sound, of course you have to belive in ordinals greater than the continuum. 

Finally and not least, A A Markov 1958 proof of the impossiblity of solving the homeomorphy problem for manifolds, dimension 4 and above. A result I believe to be the equivalent of the impossiblity of solving 5 deg poly by radicals. This result in my opinion is the REAL reason why everyone is doing category theory. I must point out that category theory has many enemies in mathematics, who feel that it is only useful for expositionary work, not actual creative stuff (except for Grothendieck)

Essential the Bourbaki spirit now lives in combinatorial group theory and model theory. At the moment these subjects are at the fringe, but I believe that out of these 2 subject will come the mathematics for the 21 century like topology was for the 20th!

an amateur Mathematican</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that the criticism of Bourbaki is over the top. If you are interested in philosophy, in particular of the analytical type, then actually Bourbaki group helped developed some very interesting mathematics which lead to these developments:</p>
<p>Cleared up the notion of &#8216;proof&#8217; for a mathematician (i.e there are an &#8216;infinity&#8217; of levels at which mathematics can be done : &#8211; Category theory is just one)</p>
<p>Created the machinery that allowed 2nd order logic to be formalised. This lead to P Cohen proof of the undecidablity of continuum hypothesis.</p>
<p>Also to the proof that Mathematics is sound, of course you have to belive in ordinals greater than the continuum. </p>
<p>Finally and not least, A A Markov 1958 proof of the impossiblity of solving the homeomorphy problem for manifolds, dimension 4 and above. A result I believe to be the equivalent of the impossiblity of solving 5 deg poly by radicals. This result in my opinion is the REAL reason why everyone is doing category theory. I must point out that category theory has many enemies in mathematics, who feel that it is only useful for expositionary work, not actual creative stuff (except for Grothendieck)</p>
<p>Essential the Bourbaki spirit now lives in combinatorial group theory and model theory. At the moment these subjects are at the fringe, but I believe that out of these 2 subject will come the mathematics for the 21 century like topology was for the 20th!</p>
<p>an amateur Mathematican</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=153&#038;cpage=1#comment-2328</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=153#comment-2328</guid>
		<description>Hi Danny,

Bourbaki&#039;s heyday was the fifties, part of the same over-emphasis on abstraction that lead to the &quot;new math&quot; disaster.  By the 70s, Bourbaki&#039;s influence had started to wane.  One reason was that mathematicians had begun to lose interest in overly formalist approaches, another was that Grothendieck showed that very different foundations were needed (i.e. category theory vs. set theory).  The influence of physics on mathematics also had an effect.

These days, Bourbaki has little influence in math.  Some of their books are actually pretty good, but mostly they are used as technical references, nobody tries to learn anything from them. For a long time now the group has stopped writing more.

Mathematicians still generally do a terrible job of writing readable expository material, but mostly they are no longer doing overly formalistic things.  But what they do is inherently different than what physicists do, largely because there is a strong culture of not allowing people to be imprecise, and insisting on absolute clarity of in arguments.  Physicists would do well to learn something from this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Danny,</p>
<p>Bourbaki&#8217;s heyday was the fifties, part of the same over-emphasis on abstraction that lead to the &#8220;new math&#8221; disaster.  By the 70s, Bourbaki&#8217;s influence had started to wane.  One reason was that mathematicians had begun to lose interest in overly formalist approaches, another was that Grothendieck showed that very different foundations were needed (i.e. category theory vs. set theory).  The influence of physics on mathematics also had an effect.</p>
<p>These days, Bourbaki has little influence in math.  Some of their books are actually pretty good, but mostly they are used as technical references, nobody tries to learn anything from them. For a long time now the group has stopped writing more.</p>
<p>Mathematicians still generally do a terrible job of writing readable expository material, but mostly they are no longer doing overly formalistic things.  But what they do is inherently different than what physicists do, largely because there is a strong culture of not allowing people to be imprecise, and insisting on absolute clarity of in arguments.  Physicists would do well to learn something from this.</p>
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		<title>By: D R Lunsford</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=153&#038;cpage=1#comment-2329</link>
		<dc:creator>D R Lunsford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=153#comment-2329</guid>
		<description>Peter,

One of my best friends was educated in the heyday of &quot;new math&quot;, at Columbia and MIT. In high school of course he was at the top of his class, and in a class by himself technically. He related the following story. He learned calculus from Lang, was doing functional analysis as a high school student etc. etc. Then, he had to teach a course at MIT to engineers. He suddenly realized he couldn&#039;t do a simple surface integral da capo. He stated to me, that he began to consider the entire axiomatic program embodied in Bourbaki to be a total sham, and sought to restructure his knowledge on intuitionist lines (Brouwer, Weyl). Needless to say this was a complete success and now this peson is a world-authority on the math and modeling of turbulence. This was in spite of, not because of, the French program.

I think it can safely be argued that Bourbaki and its intellectual worldview of lofty abstractions and airy-fairy axiomatics has been a disaster for science, has attempted to rip math and physics apart from each other at the sternum, and has created the mental climate in which a ruse like string theory can develop in the first place.

-drl</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter,</p>
<p>One of my best friends was educated in the heyday of &#8220;new math&#8221;, at Columbia and MIT. In high school of course he was at the top of his class, and in a class by himself technically. He related the following story. He learned calculus from Lang, was doing functional analysis as a high school student etc. etc. Then, he had to teach a course at MIT to engineers. He suddenly realized he couldn&#8217;t do a simple surface integral da capo. He stated to me, that he began to consider the entire axiomatic program embodied in Bourbaki to be a total sham, and sought to restructure his knowledge on intuitionist lines (Brouwer, Weyl). Needless to say this was a complete success and now this peson is a world-authority on the math and modeling of turbulence. This was in spite of, not because of, the French program.</p>
<p>I think it can safely be argued that Bourbaki and its intellectual worldview of lofty abstractions and airy-fairy axiomatics has been a disaster for science, has attempted to rip math and physics apart from each other at the sternum, and has created the mental climate in which a ruse like string theory can develop in the first place.</p>
<p>-drl</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=153&#038;cpage=1#comment-2330</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=153#comment-2330</guid>
		<description>Hi Rafael,

It&#039;s not so much that prominent French Mathematicians were killed in WWI, but that many of the best math students were killed.  Two-thirds of the students at the Ecole Normale Superieure died, this is the place that produced most mathematics teachers and researchers.

For more about this and about Bourbaki, see

http://planetmath.org/encyclopedia/NicolasBourbaki.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Rafael,</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not so much that prominent French Mathematicians were killed in WWI, but that many of the best math students were killed.  Two-thirds of the students at the Ecole Normale Superieure died, this is the place that produced most mathematics teachers and researchers.</p>
<p>For more about this and about Bourbaki, see</p>
<p><a href="http://planetmath.org/encyclopedia/NicolasBourbaki.html" rel="nofollow">http://planetmath.org/encyclopedia/NicolasBourbaki.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Rafael</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=153&#038;cpage=1#comment-2331</link>
		<dc:creator>Rafael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=153#comment-2331</guid>
		<description>Hi Peter,

Which French mathematicians were killed in WW I?  Also was Bourbaki created to &quot;collect&quot; all known French mathematics?

Thanks,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Peter,</p>
<p>Which French mathematicians were killed in WW I?  Also was Bourbaki created to &#8220;collect&#8221; all known French mathematics?</p>
<p>Thanks,</p>
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		<title>By: D R Lunsford</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=153&#038;cpage=1#comment-2332</link>
		<dc:creator>D R Lunsford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=153#comment-2332</guid>
		<description>The parallel story of A. Raabe is worth mentioning. He was arrested in Krakow and died at Auschwitz before he could band together with other physicists for the purpose of making political statements or abstraction committees.

He did very interesting work on relativistic rotators as a kid.

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/hep-th/pdf/0303/0303099.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The parallel story of A. Raabe is worth mentioning. He was arrested in Krakow and died at Auschwitz before he could band together with other physicists for the purpose of making political statements or abstraction committees.</p>
<p>He did very interesting work on relativistic rotators as a kid.</p>
<p><a href="http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/hep-th/pdf/0303/0303099.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/hep-th/pdf/0303/0303099.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=153&#038;cpage=1#comment-2333</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=153#comment-2333</guid>
		<description>No, he would have been too young (born in 1906).  Weil started his career at a time when much of the generation just older than him had been wiped out by WWI. This had a lot to do with why he and others of his generation ended up banding together to form Bourbaki.  Also probably had a lot to do with why he was evading the draft.  He had seen one generation of French mathematicians killed in WWI and didn&#039;t want this to happen again, especially not to himself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, he would have been too young (born in 1906).  Weil started his career at a time when much of the generation just older than him had been wiped out by WWI. This had a lot to do with why he and others of his generation ended up banding together to form Bourbaki.  Also probably had a lot to do with why he was evading the draft.  He had seen one generation of French mathematicians killed in WWI and didn&#8217;t want this to happen again, especially not to himself.</p>
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		<title>By: Alejandro Rivero</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=153&#038;cpage=1#comment-2334</link>
		<dc:creator>Alejandro Rivero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=153#comment-2334</guid>
		<description>Now I think about, was Weil also in prison during WWI or was he too young?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now I think about, was Weil also in prison during WWI or was he too young?</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=153&#038;cpage=1#comment-2335</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=153#comment-2335</guid>
		<description>Hi Daniel,

Oops, typo in html.  Fixed now.  Thanks for pointing this out!

Peter</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Daniel,</p>
<p>Oops, typo in html.  Fixed now.  Thanks for pointing this out!</p>
<p>Peter</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Doro Ferrante</title>
		<link>http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=153&#038;cpage=1#comment-2336</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Doro Ferrante</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=153#comment-2336</guid>
		<description>Hi Peter,

I think that your link to the &quot;English translation&quot; is missing, at least as of now (10FEb05 @ 14:33:00h) it seems void. (Not that i can&#039;t find the link otherwise... but, just a heads up. ;)

Cheers,
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Peter,</p>
<p>I think that your link to the &#8220;English translation&#8221; is missing, at least as of now (10FEb05 @ 14:33:00h) it seems void. (Not that i can&#8217;t find the link otherwise&#8230; but, just a heads up. <img src='http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
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